So Long and So Stupid... No Cut, No Mercy
Jewishness
This guy is Jewish. When I tried say he was Jewish, people removed it. Some of the categories this article has are Jewish categories, so why can't we say he's a Jew? I'm just looking out for my people.Jimjones5 02:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Cross says that Judaism is the only religion where you cannot get out of it, no matter what you believe. You may insist he is Jewish, but he has made his Atheism clear. Laszlo Panaflex 01:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree with Laszlo Panaflex--if you've ever listened to David Cross, he talks at length about his religious status and general disbelief in religion. As an encyclopedic entry, it would be incorrect to label Cross as Jewish when he as clearly renounced any belief in that religion. Mrestko 02:04, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
P.S.: I just discovered this link on the bottom of the main article page: Cross On Atheism. It clearly documents Cross's Atheism and should end this discussion. Mrestko 02:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Judaism, like another Wikipedia article says, is also an ethnic group and culture. He is Jewish because he's ethnically Jewish. Plenty of Jews are agnostics and atheists. Somatomy 03:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
So his own opinion does not matter? He does not self-identify as Jewish, so is it hoisted upon anyway? It would be correct to say he is of Jewish ancestry, as he does in a quote on the page, but to say in the first line of the article that he is Jewish misrepresents him and his views. Laszlo Panaflex 05:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. I can't find anything where he considers himself Jewish and it does seem that he doesn't. It should be said somewhere in the article that he's of Jewish descent though, I think (although the subcategories he's in indicate it). Somatomy 05:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
His ancestry is not relevant. It doesn't seem to influence him as a person other than as a joke in some of his bits. This article is about him and his career as an actor and comedian, not the geological and religious background of his ancestors. Mrestko 07:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
He's not a rock. Arniep 07:21, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I know this is obscure, but I think Mrestko is talking about the rabbi in the middle ages who created a golem in Jewish folklore. If this guy was David Cross's ancestor, that means that he may be a descendant of the person who built the first robot. The story isn't true though like the rest of the religion, so I don't know why Mrestko even brought that up. Somatomy 07:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, that was a typo-I meant geographic background (referring to the geographic origin of this ancestors). Mrestko 15:10, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
His ancestry is a fact about him. If he were black, it would be mentioned somewhere. I see a lot of articles that mention Irish and Italian ancestry. Articles generally do mention ethnic background. Somatomy 21:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe people still don't get this. He's not a fucking Jew. He's white. I don't know why you people still argue this to the death. --Macarion 22:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Just what the hell is that supposed to mean? Most Jews are white, the Ashkenazi are anyway.L0b0t 02:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
So he's just generic white with no ethnic background beyond that. You're right, I didn't get it. Thanks for explaining it. Somatomy 04:11, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Somatomy. All that's needed is a sentence summarizing all this discussion, that although he is of Jewish descent he is an avowed atheist, a fact complicated by Jewish tradition stating that if your mother's Jewish then you're Jewish. Maybe including his own summary of this situation from Shut Up You Fucking Baby would be best. Thoughts? --TM 13:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I added a quote summarizing his opnion of the relationship between his atheism and his Jewish ancestry taking lines from track 2 of Shut up etc., "Lunch with Frankenstein" between about 6:00 and 8:30. --TM 13:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I approve of this. Somatomy 20:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I think that quote needs to come from a source. I only found one page that had a quote like that and it conflicted with yours. The page isn't up though (njatheist.org), I was only able to access the cache. The "can't" was in there but some other stuff was different. Somatomy 07:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
You can't just make up some random rule about your religion
"Oh, if you talk to me, you're a Jew"
No, it's a religion like all the others, people get to decide what they are, not some arbitrary tradition --Macarion 03:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
It's not an "arbitrary tradition",to be a Jew one has to meet three criteria: circumcision, a micvah (ritual bath), and a Bar or Bat Mitzvah. If you have done these three things, then congratulations you are a Jew and all the nay saying in the world won't change that fact. The thing about ones mother being Jewish only refers to the Israeli "Right of Return" where anyone with a Jewish mother is considered Jewish enough to emigrate to Israel.L0b0t 13:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Jewish law says that if your mother is Jewish, you are Jewish, regardless of any other factor. It has nothing to do with emigration to Israel. SlimVirgin (talk) 13:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Exactly, thank you --Macarion 18:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't know why Lobot was saying that. I wasn't bar mitzvahed, I'm an agnostic leaning towards atheism, and I'm against organized religion, but I'm still Jewish. Somatomy 18:45, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
You still don't seem to understand that it's not just a religion, it's also an ethnic group. For example, if someone's background is Russian Jewish, he doesn't lose the "Jewish" part of his ancestry if he becomes an atheist. He's not suddenly just Russian or white. Jews are a specific kind of white person ethnically and Russian Jews are a specific kind of Russian ethnically. Somatomy 05:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Not all jews are white, many Mizrahi Jews for example are darker skinned, and I believe there are Jews from Ethiopia who most people would describe as black. Arniep 19:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
That depends on what you consider white. Yes, the Ethiopian jews aren't white. But middle eastern people are considered white by many including myself. They're very similar racially to Southern Italians and Greeks. I was talking about the Jewish ethnic group though. The Jewish ethnic group is white. Somatomy 19:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe genetic tests have shown that the Ethiopian Jews also originate in the male line to the Israel/Palestine area. Arniep 20:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean "in the male line?" Somatomy 21:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The male Y-Chromosome is genetically very similar to other Jews, Palestinians and Kurds. Arniep 21:35, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
If a black woman becomes a Jew and has a son, is that son automatically a Jew, even though he doesn't share the same ethnicity as the real "ethnic Jews"? --Macarion 21:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
You keep missing the point, Macarion. You seem incapable of understanding what I've been trying to say. I'm not talking about the "mother being jewish" rule at all. Somatomy 23:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, one and all, for preparing the above comments, which I will be lifting whole for a new routine I call, "People on the internet are more fucking stupid than anyone ever imagined." You will not be credited or listed in the thank you section of the CD, but you are free to go around saying, "hey, I'm one of the stupid fucks he's talking about!" David Cross 01:01, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I wonder if it's really him!!!
I really doubt it's David Cross, but I hope it is and I hope he's not joking because being in his next CD would be cool. I'm a big fan of his. I'll wish I hadn't been using my fake Wikipedia name. It's not David Cross though, I'm guessing. Besides its being unlikely in general, that profile was just created today. Somatomy 01:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
It's not all that unlikely, a few people have edited/commented on their own article, some even try to make it less unflattering (either Milli or Vanilli did it I think). And having a discussion with points as brilliant as "I can't believe people still don't get this. He's not a fucking Jew. He's white." being associated with you would probably be enough to warrant a comment. --TM 03:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I still think it's much more likely that someone else was watching this argument, created the username last night, and posted it as a joke. I don't think it was Macarion though because it was too well-written. Whoever did it is a fairly convincing David Cross. Somatomy 07:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:David_Cross
This guy is Jewish. When I tried say he was Jewish, people removed it. Some of the categories this article has are Jewish categories, so why can't we say he's a Jew? I'm just looking out for my people.Jimjones5 02:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Cross says that Judaism is the only religion where you cannot get out of it, no matter what you believe. You may insist he is Jewish, but he has made his Atheism clear. Laszlo Panaflex 01:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree with Laszlo Panaflex--if you've ever listened to David Cross, he talks at length about his religious status and general disbelief in religion. As an encyclopedic entry, it would be incorrect to label Cross as Jewish when he as clearly renounced any belief in that religion. Mrestko 02:04, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
P.S.: I just discovered this link on the bottom of the main article page: Cross On Atheism. It clearly documents Cross's Atheism and should end this discussion. Mrestko 02:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Judaism, like another Wikipedia article says, is also an ethnic group and culture. He is Jewish because he's ethnically Jewish. Plenty of Jews are agnostics and atheists. Somatomy 03:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
So his own opinion does not matter? He does not self-identify as Jewish, so is it hoisted upon anyway? It would be correct to say he is of Jewish ancestry, as he does in a quote on the page, but to say in the first line of the article that he is Jewish misrepresents him and his views. Laszlo Panaflex 05:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. I can't find anything where he considers himself Jewish and it does seem that he doesn't. It should be said somewhere in the article that he's of Jewish descent though, I think (although the subcategories he's in indicate it). Somatomy 05:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
His ancestry is not relevant. It doesn't seem to influence him as a person other than as a joke in some of his bits. This article is about him and his career as an actor and comedian, not the geological and religious background of his ancestors. Mrestko 07:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
He's not a rock. Arniep 07:21, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I know this is obscure, but I think Mrestko is talking about the rabbi in the middle ages who created a golem in Jewish folklore. If this guy was David Cross's ancestor, that means that he may be a descendant of the person who built the first robot. The story isn't true though like the rest of the religion, so I don't know why Mrestko even brought that up. Somatomy 07:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, that was a typo-I meant geographic background (referring to the geographic origin of this ancestors). Mrestko 15:10, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
His ancestry is a fact about him. If he were black, it would be mentioned somewhere. I see a lot of articles that mention Irish and Italian ancestry. Articles generally do mention ethnic background. Somatomy 21:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe people still don't get this. He's not a fucking Jew. He's white. I don't know why you people still argue this to the death. --Macarion 22:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Just what the hell is that supposed to mean? Most Jews are white, the Ashkenazi are anyway.L0b0t 02:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
So he's just generic white with no ethnic background beyond that. You're right, I didn't get it. Thanks for explaining it. Somatomy 04:11, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Somatomy. All that's needed is a sentence summarizing all this discussion, that although he is of Jewish descent he is an avowed atheist, a fact complicated by Jewish tradition stating that if your mother's Jewish then you're Jewish. Maybe including his own summary of this situation from Shut Up You Fucking Baby would be best. Thoughts? --TM 13:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I added a quote summarizing his opnion of the relationship between his atheism and his Jewish ancestry taking lines from track 2 of Shut up etc., "Lunch with Frankenstein" between about 6:00 and 8:30. --TM 13:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I approve of this. Somatomy 20:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I think that quote needs to come from a source. I only found one page that had a quote like that and it conflicted with yours. The page isn't up though (njatheist.org), I was only able to access the cache. The "can't" was in there but some other stuff was different. Somatomy 07:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
You can't just make up some random rule about your religion
"Oh, if you talk to me, you're a Jew"
No, it's a religion like all the others, people get to decide what they are, not some arbitrary tradition --Macarion 03:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
It's not an "arbitrary tradition",to be a Jew one has to meet three criteria: circumcision, a micvah (ritual bath), and a Bar or Bat Mitzvah. If you have done these three things, then congratulations you are a Jew and all the nay saying in the world won't change that fact. The thing about ones mother being Jewish only refers to the Israeli "Right of Return" where anyone with a Jewish mother is considered Jewish enough to emigrate to Israel.L0b0t 13:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Jewish law says that if your mother is Jewish, you are Jewish, regardless of any other factor. It has nothing to do with emigration to Israel. SlimVirgin (talk) 13:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Exactly, thank you --Macarion 18:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't know why Lobot was saying that. I wasn't bar mitzvahed, I'm an agnostic leaning towards atheism, and I'm against organized religion, but I'm still Jewish. Somatomy 18:45, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
You still don't seem to understand that it's not just a religion, it's also an ethnic group. For example, if someone's background is Russian Jewish, he doesn't lose the "Jewish" part of his ancestry if he becomes an atheist. He's not suddenly just Russian or white. Jews are a specific kind of white person ethnically and Russian Jews are a specific kind of Russian ethnically. Somatomy 05:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Not all jews are white, many Mizrahi Jews for example are darker skinned, and I believe there are Jews from Ethiopia who most people would describe as black. Arniep 19:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
That depends on what you consider white. Yes, the Ethiopian jews aren't white. But middle eastern people are considered white by many including myself. They're very similar racially to Southern Italians and Greeks. I was talking about the Jewish ethnic group though. The Jewish ethnic group is white. Somatomy 19:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe genetic tests have shown that the Ethiopian Jews also originate in the male line to the Israel/Palestine area. Arniep 20:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean "in the male line?" Somatomy 21:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The male Y-Chromosome is genetically very similar to other Jews, Palestinians and Kurds. Arniep 21:35, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
If a black woman becomes a Jew and has a son, is that son automatically a Jew, even though he doesn't share the same ethnicity as the real "ethnic Jews"? --Macarion 21:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
You keep missing the point, Macarion. You seem incapable of understanding what I've been trying to say. I'm not talking about the "mother being jewish" rule at all. Somatomy 23:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, one and all, for preparing the above comments, which I will be lifting whole for a new routine I call, "People on the internet are more fucking stupid than anyone ever imagined." You will not be credited or listed in the thank you section of the CD, but you are free to go around saying, "hey, I'm one of the stupid fucks he's talking about!" David Cross 01:01, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I wonder if it's really him!!!
I really doubt it's David Cross, but I hope it is and I hope he's not joking because being in his next CD would be cool. I'm a big fan of his. I'll wish I hadn't been using my fake Wikipedia name. It's not David Cross though, I'm guessing. Besides its being unlikely in general, that profile was just created today. Somatomy 01:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
It's not all that unlikely, a few people have edited/commented on their own article, some even try to make it less unflattering (either Milli or Vanilli did it I think). And having a discussion with points as brilliant as "I can't believe people still don't get this. He's not a fucking Jew. He's white." being associated with you would probably be enough to warrant a comment. --TM 03:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I still think it's much more likely that someone else was watching this argument, created the username last night, and posted it as a joke. I don't think it was Macarion though because it was too well-written. Whoever did it is a fairly convincing David Cross. Somatomy 07:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:David_Cross
posted by Tristan Tzara at 9:13 PM
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